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Episode #430: Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer – The Bull Case for Gold – Meb Faber Analysis

Episode #430: Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer – The Bull Case for Gold


Friends: Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer are mining executives that constructed Goldcorp right into a $50 billion enterprise. Ian is the previous Chairman of Goldcorp and Frank was a co-founder & Director of Goldcorp. Frank later based Lionsgate leisure.

Date Recorded: 7/12/2022     |     Run-Time: 52:36

Abstract: In as we speak’s episode, we’re speaking all about gold with two of probably the most knowledgable within the area. The fellows focus on why the arrange as we speak mirrors 2001, a time proper earlier than gold when on a giant bull run. We additionally contact on how gold carried out throughout the 1970’s and why they’re so bullish on gold as we speak that they began one other mining firm, Aris.

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Hyperlinks from the Episode:

  • 0:38 – Intro
  • 1:23 – Welcome to our company, Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer
  • 2:12 – The primary olive oil on this planet Domenica Fiore
  • 3:14 – Frank & Ian’s connection within the gold area with Goldcorp
  • 6:48 – How to consider gold as we speak
  • 13:44 – The genesis of their new challenge, Aris
  • 16:31 – Ian’s philosophy for M&A
  • 26:34 – Is Gold’s sideways consolidation a superb alternative for consumers?
  • 32:24 – World Asset Allocation
  • 37:58 – Twitter Ballot: How many individuals say they personal gold or miners?
  • 39:18 – Issues they’re fascinated about as they appear out to the horizon
  • 45:12 – Their most memorable investments
  • 49:07 – Be taught extra about Frank and Ian: @Frank_Giustra



Meb: Welcome to “The Meb Faber Present,” the place the main focus is on serving to you develop and protect your wealth. Be a part of us as we focus on the craft of investing, and uncover new and worthwhile concepts, all that will help you develop wealthier and wiser. Higher investing begins right here.

Disclaimer: Meb Faber is the co-founder and the chief funding officer of Cambria Funding Administration. On account of business rules, he won’t focus on any of Cambria’s funds on this podcast. All opinions expressed by podcast individuals are solely their very own opinions and don’t mirror the opinion of Cambria Funding Administration or its associates. For extra data, go to

Meb: What’s up, my buddies. We have now a tremendous present for you as we speak. Our company are Frank Giustra and Ian Telfer, two profitable mining executives that constructed Goldcorp to a $50 billion firm. Enjoyable reality, Frank additionally began Lionsgate Leisure. In as we speak’s episode, we’re speaking all about gold with two of probably the most educated and profitable operators and executives within the area. The fellows focus on why the macro set-up as we speak mirrors 2001, a time proper earlier than gold went on a giant bull run. We additionally contact on how gold carried out throughout the Nineteen Seventies and why they’re so bullish on gold as we speak. They received the band again collectively they usually began in one other mining firm, Aris Gold. Please take pleasure in this episode with Frank Giustra and Ian Telfer.

Meb: Frank and Ian, welcome to the present.

Frank: Thanks.

Ian: Thanks.

Meb: I used to be simply remarking, it is a trendy Zoom. So, fellas, inform us the place you’re situated as we speak. I’m in Los Angeles. Frank, the place are you?

Frank: I’m in France.

Meb: And Ian?

Ian: I’m in Ontario, about two hours north of Toronto.

Meb: Very cool. Nicely, guys, we’re going to speak about all issues gold, macro, mining. However earlier than we begin, I received a query for Frank as a result of I’ve a bundle within the mail. It’s not right here but, so I can’t do a stay style take a look at, however I received some olive oil coming to my home out of your farm or out of your manufacturing firm. Give me somewhat preview. What do I’ve to look ahead to? What kind of makes use of? Is that this salad form of olive oil? Is that this cooking olive oil? Give us somewhat background.

Ian: Nicely, thanks for the free business. It’s referred to as Domenica Fiore, it’s named after my mom. I began making it about 12 years in the past or so, and it’s made in Italy in a spot referred to as Orvieto in Umbria. It’s rated the primary olive oil on this planet. And that’s not me saying that, that’s all these worldwide judges at virtually each competitors on the planet. Don’t use it for cooking. Please don’t use my oil for cooking. It’s far too priceless. We name it ending oil, so use it for salads, dipping your bread, ending meats, pasta, soups, no matter. It’s ending oil. It’s beautiful.

Meb: I feel I received the sampler. Do you’ve gotten a favourite? I’m going to carry you to the hearth.

Frank: The favourite is what we name the Novello Di Notte, which implies it’s new oil made at nighttime. We’re the one producer on this planet that harvest our oil very early within the season when it’s nonetheless actually sizzling in Italy. And we harvest in the course of the evening, and it makes a world of distinction. Simply an unimaginable oil, and it’s a really distinctive, very restricted version, Novello Di Notte.

Meb: Very cool. Nicely, I look ahead to it. Let’s begin speaking about all issues mining and gold. You guys have labored collectively up to now, type of bringing the band again collectively. So, Ian, I feel I’ll direct this one to you. Give us somewhat origin story. You guys, what you’ve been as much as, after which we are able to get into what you guys are doing now.

Ian: As you stated, Frank and I am going again fairly a methods within the gold enterprise with the beginning up of Wheaton River 20-plus years in the past. And our imaginative and prescient then was to construct a brand new main gold mining firm. Though lots of people begin off with that imaginative and prescient, we truly have been capable of accomplish it. We have been excited concerning the timing, and we have been excited concerning the alternative, and we have been very proud of the way it all unfolded.

Meb: For the listeners who aren’t as acquainted, so my non-Canadian Australians, give us somewhat background. They might have heard the title Wheaton River, however what does that imply? Inform us only a actual fast overview of what that was.

Ian: Positive. Nicely, in 2000, Frank and I made a decision we must always attempt to construct a significant gold mining firm. And as we regarded round for alternatives, we discovered this firm referred to as Wheaton River Minerals, they usually had run out of ore, they usually had somewhat bit of money, they usually’d run out of concepts. And so Frank and I took over the board of administrators, put somewhat of our personal cash in, after which very aggressively went out and began buying property to construct a gold mining firm. And over the subsequent seven years, I suppose we purchased about 9 gold mines. And the market cap went from $20 million CAD to its…at its peak, it received to $50 billion USD. It was a fantastic expertise, and the market was enthusiastic about it, they usually have been very blissful that we have been there to create one other car for the traders. That was mainly the story.

Frank: Nicely, most traders would acknowledge the corporate as Goldcorp. It modified, and as we did one among our reverse takeovers was with an organization referred to as Goldcorp, which was already current. We renamed Wheaton River Goldcorp again in 2003 or ’04. And so when you have been to look it up, it was Goldcorp.

Meb: What was actually the principle worth driver? As a result of, I imply, that’s fairly dramatic…getting as much as a $50 billion market cap is just not chump change and that’s not a simple activity.

Ian: There was a pair, one was the value of gold. Our timing turned out to be completely impeccable. After we began on the journey, the gold value was about $250. After which over the subsequent s7 or 8years, it received as much as virtually $2000. In order that, clearly, we had the wind at our again. However secondly, we have been probably the most aggressive, form of, agglomerator within the enterprise, and the market beloved that. And so we stored buying property, somewhat bit like non-public fairness, besides we used fairness, we didn’t use a lot debt. So, placing the 2 collectively, the gold value and the pace at which we have been appearing, that’s what actually created all the worth.

Frank: And we purchased some nice property at first. And going again to what Ian was saying, initially, when nobody believed within the gold value, there have been only a few of us. Truly, I wrote a thesis again in 2001 about what I anticipated gold to do subsequent. And at the moment, after I got here up with that publication, only a few folks believed it. So after we have been on the market shopping for property, we have been shopping for extremely good property when fewer folks needed them. And so it was…the thought was we chosen actually nice property and we received them early on and that gave us a giant leg up over everybody else that got here in later as a gold value began to maneuver.

Meb: So, right here we’re, quick ahead. It’s now 2022, and we’ve accomplished a number of podcasts on gold and mining, however so much on pure assets, particularly, farming normally, gold sitting someplace in that $1,700 zone. That is mid July. Frank, perhaps give us somewhat framework for a way to consider gold. We did a Twitter ballot the opposite day, or a number of months in the past, after we requested traders, “Do you’ve gotten any publicity to actual property?” And so, which means simply all commodities, even REITs, TIPs, and most traders don’t, or in the event that they do, they’ve little or no in a world of regardless of the inflation is as we speak. That appears unwise, however give us perhaps somewhat macro consideration about gold normally. The place do you assume we’re? The case for it, all that good things.

Frank: I feel that the sentiment is just not that dissimilar to 2001. We have now only a few folks as we speak that consider within the gold value. They see it caught in a variety between form of $1,700 and $2,000, and never going anyplace, they’ve watched all of the cryptocurrencies undergo the roof, and the tech shares undergo the roof, and the beginnings of an inflationary interval, and the truth that gold hasn’t moved. And I feel that sentiment is all the pieces in markets, and I feel it’s similar to how folks felt again then. And the half that that you must deal with is, who’re the actual gold consumers in as we speak’s market? And there are a number of tendencies that it’s important to watch. And I’ve been writing about gold for over 20 years. I watch it very intently, I write so much about macro tendencies and what’s happening within the international financial system.

And it’s important to simply take note of a few details. Initially, bodily gold is shifting from West to East. So China, India, clearly, the 2 largest consumers of gold constantly shopping for gold over the many years and including to their reserves, particularly China. Russia, additionally. And whereas the west has been centered on paper gold, after they have any curiosity in gold, it’s simply paper gold, which isn’t actual gold, by the best way. Should you assume you’re shopping for actual gold, once you purchase gold ETFs, you’re badly mistaken. So the bodily stuff is shifting from West to East. And I feel that that’s one factor it’s important to pay loads of consideration to. Central banks…since 2010, central banks world wide have been on a gold-buying binge. They proceed so as to add to the gold reserves. Their U.S. greenback publicity is slowly happening by way of their reserves, and their gold goes up. So that they see the writing on the wall.

I feel when you have been China as we speak, with the best way they take a look at making long-term selections, they’ve very long-term plans. They’ve been including to their gold reserves, and they’ll proceed so as to add to their gold reserves, and for them to see the gold value staying the place it’s, is completely advantageous. I don’t assume they’re having any hassle with that. The U.S., alternatively, the Fed and others, different policymakers disparage gold. They don’t need you to personal gold. They name it a barbaric relic, it’s not a foreign money. Nicely, actually, it’s a foreign money, and each central financial institution on this planet is aware of it’s a foreign money. So I simply watch what folks do versus what they are saying. And people are the 2 main issues it’s important to watch. So I feel that we’re heading in the direction of some form of international financial system reset. What that’s going to seem like, who is aware of? It might play out some ways.

I wrote an article on this final week and I speculated that maybe it might go within the route of {a partially} backed gold foreign money use for settlement functions by nations that wish to keep away from being sanctioned or expelled from the SWIFT system, U.S. SWIFT system. And so I feel that there’s a superb likelihood that gold might play a task in regardless of the financial system reset is, just because all of the central banks already personal it, they’re buying increasingly of it yearly. The idea system in fiat currencies is falling aside, and it’s falling aside in all places. Should you take a look at what they’ve accomplished, not simply with the greenback, however the euro and the yuan, they’re destroying these currencies by printing trillions and trillions of these things. I feel since 2006, central financial institution reserves within the 5 main central banks have gone up 500%. They’re simply creating cash out of skinny air. And finally, you possibly can’t play that recreation ceaselessly. And that’s why I feel the sensible cash, the long-term cash has gold publicity, and particularly the central banks.

Meb: After we take a look at it, I feel gold not performing these days is a little bit of a shock to lots of people we discuss to. And we are saying there’s type of two large quant elements that actually are optimistic for gold, one being destructive actual rates of interest, which we actually have, and the opposite being an inverted yield curve, which now we have. And so, as we glance out within the horizon, let’s say we do that one other yr, two, or three, and we are saying, “Okay, properly, gold actually began to bull.” Should you might guess, and that is extra of a cheerful hour/espresso query, so…however what kind of catalyst…Is there one thing that you’d say is your probably guess as to what…is it a bear market? Is it extra crypto fraud? Is it some form of geopolitical one thing? What do you assume will trigger this to really shift into bull mode?

Frank: I feel all of these issues that you simply simply talked about will play a task, however I feel the largest, to me, will likely be when the Fed blanks once more. And going again to pre-2008, I began writing about what the Fed would do after the disaster of 2008, they did precisely that. They took charges to zero, printed some huge cash. Then Bernanke got here out and stated, “Nicely, you already know, no drawback. We are able to normalize charges and we are able to unwind the stability sheet.” And I referred to as BS on that in a number of articles. After which as they began to boost charges, I stated, “They’re going to solely get them thus far, after which they are going to pause, clean, and reverse.” And I stated that in 2016 and 2017, and that’s precisely what occurred two years later. And I’m telling you, as we communicate, my view of it’s that there’s all this discuss normalizing charges proper now as a result of inflation is so excessive they usually must get it below management, however they’ll’t. Mathematically, it’s inconceivable.

Anyone with a easy calculator will let you know that there’s a lot debt within the system, authorities, company, private debt is globally at $300 trillion, they’ll’t normalize charges. They usually know that, okay? So all this discuss these aggressive hikes, the way it’s going to get this below management, I think by this fall…we’ll see, however my greatest guess is by someday this fall, they are going to clean, and they’ll pause, after which they’ll reverse. And we’re going to return to zero finally. If the market continues to implode or we fall right into a deep recession, there’s one other geopolitical occasion, no matter it’s, they’ll discover an excuse for it. Final time was a pandemic. They’ll discover an excuse for it, and they’ll pause. That’s, to me, going to be the catalyst that units the gold value on fireplace as a result of I might assume by then, persons are going to comprehend that they’re in an inescapable lure. They can not normalize charges. It’s mathematically inconceivable.

Meb: Let’s begin to take somewhat stroll ahead to what y’all’s new concepts? What was the genesis of this concept? And provides us an summary of what you guys are banding up for now.

Frank: As Ian talked about, no, we received collectively…and I bear in mind I used to run an funding financial institution again within the ’90s, and Ian was one among my large purchasers within the mining sector. And I bear in mind the day I resigned from the agency, I needed to step away from the business and do one thing else. So I simply walked away. However I nonetheless had lunch booked with Ian. We went to lunch anyway, and I stated, “Ian, you already know what? I don’t know what I’m going to do subsequent. But when I ever come again to the mining business…” that is again in 1996. I stated, “If I ever come again within the mining business, you’ll be my first name.” Scroll ahead 5 years later, I assumed…I got here up with the concept that we would have liked to do one thing. I wasn’t fairly positive what, however I had my thesis on gold, and after I needed to create one thing, my first name was Ian. And we received collectively and we created Wheaton River, which finally grew to become two firms. So Wheaton River, which grew to become Goldcorp, and the spinoff, which was Silver Wheaton, the dear metals streaming firm, which is Wheaton Valuable Metals as we speak, which I feel has a couple of $23 billion market cap. That was Ian’s genius of that spinoff, in order that was an unimaginable success.

Then in 2009, proper after the disaster and the printing of cash began to happen, we created Endeavor Mining, which I did with a fellow named Neil Woodyer, who was one among our unique board members on Wheaton River, by the best way. And we created a mining firm with mines in West Africa. Over time, we constructed it as much as about 5 completely different mines in 4 completely different nations, and it went as much as a couple of $3 billion, $4 billion market cap. Then in 2016, we did one other one, once more with Neil, this time in Latin America, that was Leagold. That was merged with Equinox, one other $2 billion or $3 billion firm. And after we bought Lea to Equinox, I knew…this was on the time when the Fed blanked again in 2019, they usually began to reverse course. I stated, “Okay, we’re going to be in for an actual gold market this time.” And this time they will be unable to tug it again.

And that is after I approached Ian and Neil once more. So now this time, it’s Neil Woodyer, Ian Telfer, myself, and a number of other others which were within the gold mining enterprise for an extended, very long time, and we determined to create Aris. And Aris is the present firm with two tasks, two very massive tasks. And once more, it’s the beginnings of one thing. And the thought is not any completely different than all the pieces else we’ve accomplished up to now. It’s a buy-and-build technique. So, meaning utilizing our experience in M&A, and our experience with elevating cash within the capital markets, and our administration experience to know what property to purchase, what to pay for them, repair them if they’ve an issue, maximize worth. That’s the Aris story, which I’m a particular advisor to, Ian’s chairman, and Neil is CEO.

Meb: So Ian, how do you discover these particular property to purchase? Presumably, they’re not simply sitting on the market on a platter someplace. What’s the method, and the way do you guys type of go about it? And inform us all of your secrets and techniques.

Ian: Nicely, as Frank says, the corporate is loaded with folks which were within the business for a very long time. So we’re conscious of loads of what’s happening on the market, now we have information of loads of the property, now we have information of who is likely to be concerned with exiting the enterprise, and now we have loads of expertise as to run these extra effectively. However to get again to your query, massive, good, gold ore our bodies are very uncommon. They’re very uncommon. And Frank and I, we acknowledged that 20 years in the past. Nicely, they’re rarer now. And so, looking for them is a problem, and discovering them is a matter, and competitors for them is at all times round.

So it’s important to be inventive, it’s important to take some dangers. And thus far, we’ve been very enthusiastic about what we’ve been capable of do with Aris. Our ambitions are massive. The market has indicated over, and over, and over once more, they need some massive firms to spend money on on the market. And every time a Goldcorp disappears into Newmont, properly, that creates a vacuum for another person. And in order that’s form of the impetus for us. And as I say, we’ve accomplished a few issues thus far, however we’re very bold and we’re very aggressive. And historical past tells us that the market will reward us for that.

Meb: The place have you ever guys began discovering properties already? Are these in Canada, U.S., Africa, Latin America? The place are you guys discovering alternative?

Ian: Nicely, thus far it’s been Latin America, and it’s been Columbia. So we’ve received two operations…one operation down there, and one other mega challenge to be constructed over the subsequent three years, however we’re alternatives in different nations as properly.

Meb: As we discuss concerning the gold miners normally, would love to listen to somewhat perception from you guys as a result of there’s in all probability…when you have been to ask me, there’s in all probability no different sub-sector or business in my thoughts the place administration is extra essential than in y’all’s world. And I really like the phrase “success leaves traces.” And so, gold mining as a sector, the shares haven’t been doing an entire lot for some time, however what are among the essential drivers that the market, on a safety degree, actually appears to be like for? Is it merely manufacturing multiples? Is it stability? Is it…? Simply discuss to us somewhat bit about if we have been to do that in 2, 3 years and we stated, “Hey, you guys have 10X, 50Xed this firm,” and we glance again, like, what could be the type of large drivers within the mining sector for you guys?

Frank: I feel…Pay attention, it’s a mixture of issues, and I’m positive Ian will add to what I’m going to say, however administration, actually essential, particularly within the strategy that we take, okay? Administration is paramount as a result of it’s all about expertise, experience, and information. Mining, as you already know, is a really difficult business. It’s important to not solely fear concerning the geology and capital markets, now we have to fret concerning the safety, it’s important to fear about politics, and all kinds of trade charges, one million various things. And when you haven’t accomplished it earlier than, you’re going to…sure to run into surprises. So, expertise is all the pieces. For my part, and Ian in all probability can add much more to this, is there are solely a handful of individuals on this world. It’s not a giant business per se. It’s not like, say, the tech business or different industries. This can be a very small business the place the profitable ones, you possibly can rely ’em virtually in a single hand, perhaps two. To me, administration is all the pieces.

And I feel we’ve assembled…once you take a look at guys like Neil Woodyer, Ian Telfer, and now we have Peter Marrone on the board, David Garofalo, Serafino Iacono. We have now all these those who have accomplished all of it earlier than in their very own proper and have come collectively to do it collectively. All people brings an entire load of expertise to the desk. And that, to me, that’s what permits me to sleep properly is figuring out that the corporate’s in good palms. Everyone knows what we’re doing, everyone knows what our price is in creating this factor. So, Ian, do you’ve gotten something so as to add to that? I imply, that’s the best way I see it.

Ian: I completely agree with that. And the opposite factor I feel Frank and I understood again after we began with Wheaton River, and we perceive now, we all know how uncommon good ore our bodies are, and we’re not afraid to exit and pay as much as get them. And I feel there are too many individuals within the gold business in search of a deal or in search of a cut price. We’re by no means in search of a deal or a cut price, we’re in search of high quality, and I’m in search of amount. I feel folks underestimate how a lot measurement issues within the gold mining enterprise. And if you wish to get the eye of institutional traders, you higher present them you’re on a path to develop to be a big producer. And so Frank and I each perceive that. And once more, our expertise with Wheaton River, we went out for main property and needed to do main financings, however we had main success. And so we’ll be doing the identical factor again and again right here, however measurement is essential.

Frank: That’s a superb level. On that observe, so the 2 tasks that we presently have in Aris, our possession that’s to our accounts already get about 10 million ounces of gold that’s within the floor that must be extracted. That’s loads of ounces of gold as a starter package, per se. Okay. So, and the grade is sweet, it’s nice grade, and it’s 10 million ounces that we hope to mine for our account. The target, and once you say, after we look again, let’s say 3, 4, 5 years from now, what’s the target? The place are we going? We have to create an organization that produces at the very least one million ounces a yr of gold. That may put you within the ranks of an essential gold producer on this planet the place the establishments must personal you, you’re within the indexes, you’re in ETFs.

And that, once more, we’ve accomplished that a number of occasions and we’re properly on our strategy to assembling the items, as we communicate, to get us to that million ounces a yr of manufacturing, the place you’re producing nice money stream as a result of your price of manufacturing is affordable. And that, once more, now we have that in each of the operations. We all know that the numbers work in that regard. So when you get 2 million ounces, and you’ve got nice revenue margins, after which the third half is you get right into a gold market, then that’s the place you get your Wheaton River sort story that goes from thousands and thousands to billions in a short time.

Meb: Satan’s advocate problem for you guys, somebody who’s been there and been large, after which now doing a youthful enterprise, once you go to talk with a challenge to be a purchaser, how arduous is it? I imply, in a world you talked about earlier of low-interest charges and type of accommodative situations and simpler cash, how arduous is it to barter with a challenge when you’ve gotten perhaps somebody who’s a lot greater additionally in search of comparable tasks? Do they value you guys out? I really feel like that is virtually like a VC pitching a startup. How can you persuade a few of these tasks? Is it actually sharp elbows or is it not a lot? Give me an summary of how deal cycle transactions go about or shut.

Frank: I is likely to be freely giving commerce secrets and techniques, however each scenario is completely different, okay? And so all I can say is let’s take a look at the final one we simply did, our most up-to-date acquisition, okay? We have been uniquely positioned…in that state of affairs, we have been uniquely positioned to be the proper purchaser for that asset to make it occur due to our nation expertise in that particular nation. And so, had one other firm are available like a bigger, say, Newmont, no matter, they wouldn’t have had the identical native potential to work with communities, work with authorities, to make issues occur in that nation. They wouldn’t have had the identical information as our administration crew did. So in each state of affairs, we don’t go into bidding processes. There’s an asset that goes up on the market, and it’s going via a course of via funding banks, we keep away from that. Ian and I hate that as a result of that’s not the sport we play. We discover very particular property that nobody else can get their head round why or the way you’re going to get it, and we do these as an alternative. I don’t assume we’ve ever been in a course of, have we, Ian, the place we have been shopping for one thing on another person?

Ian: No, no. We…

Frank: It’s not our recreation.

Ian: We have been in a few bidding conditions at Wheaton River, however generally, we didn’t know we have been bidding in opposition to another person. We have been dealing straight with the vendor and we put up our provide, after which afterwards, we discovered we outbid any individual by a penny, however we had no concept. However yeah, we don’t search for these conditions in any respect. The opposite factor that occurs is due to our expertise and our monitor file, after we say we’ll elevate cash, we elevate it. After we say we’ll shut, we shut. We get loads of alternatives due to that. Folks know that we’re critical, and if we agree on one thing, it’s going to occur. And that’s meant that we get calls greater than most individuals about property that could be out there as a result of folks know they’ll cope with it.

The opposite factor, we’re extremely good at retaining issues quiet. And that, once more, folks recognize that, that they’ll cope with us, and one of many firms that Wheaton purchased was Glamis. That was an $8 billion acquisition again at that time limit. And everybody was watching the gold area as rigorously as they do, all of the analysts, all of the funding bankers. Nobody had a clue till we introduced it. After which after we did the takeover of Placer with Barrick, once more, enormous Canadian mining occasion, not a whisper out there till it was introduced. So we’re very happy with these issues that we’d ship, and we are able to maintain a secret.

Meb: One of many challenges, but in addition alternatives via pure useful resource firms is the cycle. There’s growth occasions, there’s darkish occasions, there’s in-between occasions. And type of it appears, and also you guys can illuminate me extra as a result of I’m not as in contact with this, however gold and the miners have type of been oscillating form of sideways. Is that this a form of opportunistic, wealthy atmosphere? Like, are there loads of distressed properties or folks seeking to promote mines, or what’s the overview of form of the mining sector for a possible purchaser or vendor as we speak?

Frank: I wouldn’t say that it’s a distressed atmosphere. I’ll simply say it shortly right here, after which Ian can chime in, however I wouldn’t say it’s a distressed atmosphere by any means. I might extra classify it as a disinterest atmosphere. It’s very quiet, very inactive. The those who personal property are sitting on them, there’s not loads of capital funding getting in by those that personal. Once more, it jogs my memory of some 20 years in the past when it simply looks like nobody cares in the intervening time, which for us is nice.

Ian: Yeah. No, I’d agree with that. It’s a disinterested market. And the opposite factor about gold shares, the one those who personal gold shares are those who assume the value goes to go up. Nobody buys a gold inventory for the dividend, and even for a retailer of worth. They purchase gold shares as a result of they assume the value of gold goes to go up, and due to this fact the inventory will go up. And so, even when the value of gold is down, and there’s no pleasure concerning the fairness markets, they’re nonetheless by no means low-cost. They’re by no means low-cost. They’re absolutely priced to as we speak’s gold value. And so, it’s important to actually have conviction both that it’s going to get greater or conviction that the value of gold is definitely going to go up, to get in there and do a deal.

And that’s why, for my part, you see so most of the mid-tier producers that simply form of doddle alongside decade after decade and don’t do a lot, their inventory doesn’t do a lot, nobody’s enthusiastic about it as a result of I’d say they don’t have conviction about what they may purchase or what the value will do. And in order that’s the place we’re somewhat bit completely different. However there’s by no means bargains within the gold enterprise ever, ever, ever. Frank and I haven’t discovered one but.

Frank: Not but.

Meb: Jogs my memory of native actual property right here in Los Angeles.

Ian: Yeah.

Meb: I’m an inexpensive bastard, and so in search of bargains in actual property close to the surf breaks has been an train in futility. So, we received loads of each institutional and particular person traders that take heed to this present. Speak to us somewhat bit about how to consider placing cash to work within the miners. Was it one thing the place like, “Hey, simply go purchase an ETF and be accomplished with it,” or when you’re truly going to get into the inventory choice, what do you have to keep away from? What do you have to search for once you’re type of beginning to choose some safety choice names on this? Lots of people can get burned with inventory choice in any sector, however gold mining was one which I really feel like is fraught with locations to keep away from. Give us somewhat steering for these seeking to deploy some money right here.

Frank: I’ll go first right here. I feel it’s important to begin together with your macro view of your portfolio. I consider that, at first, it’s important to be diversified. So, meaning not placing all of your eggs in a single sector. Your mining portfolio goes to be a part of your total portfolio. Inside that…By the best way, I additionally consider we’re in a tough asset atmosphere proper now the place your total portfolio ought to be skewed in the direction of arduous property, which clearly means mining firms. And never simply gold firms, mining firms normally. That is the best way I do it. Then I take a look at my mining sector portfolio and I feel, “Nicely, what’s in there?” Nicely, clearly you’re not going to place all the pieces into danger property, you already know? That’s dumb. So that you’re going to purchase…there’s some unimaginable alternatives proper now with the massive worldwide miners. The Rio Tintos, the DHVs, the Valleys, the Anglos, the dividends that they’re paying at present metallic costs are 10%, 12%, 13%, 14% dividends.

And when you consider, as I consider, that we’re in a multiyear cycle proper now, the place inflation will maintain these metallic costs elevated, then it’s important to personal these. That’s your much less dangerous facet of the portfolio. Then you definitely at all times have some cash for…if you wish to take the danger, you’ll take a look at firms like ours and say, “Okay, I wish to purchase a development firm.” With development and ambition comes danger. So it’s important to weigh that too, however that may be a portion of your portfolio. I at all times say that in these situations, you higher be good at inventory choosing or be getting nice recommendation from those who know what they’re doing as a result of this business’s simply full of tons and plenty of folks with large concepts and really low potential to ship. And so there’s tons and plenty of these on the market telling nice tales that don’t truly ever ship however inform nice tales. And so it’s important to be very cautious. And so it’s all about administration, and you actually must do your homework once you come to this finish of the danger portion of your portfolio.

Ian: Nicely, the one factor I might additionally touch upon, although, is you take a look at the monitor file of the administration groups. As a result of what you do discover within the mining enterprise is identical folks appear to have success over, and over, and over once more. And so when you’re investing with a gaggle of individuals, take a look at those who have accomplished it earlier than and it’s labored out properly. As a result of take a look at, all these investments are powerful, all these mining operations are tough, however sure folks simply stick with it, and push arduous, and get it accomplished. And so along with, as Frank says, various your portfolio, and searching on the property, and searching on the political danger, and searching on the geological danger, put some huge cash on administration.

Meb: It simply jogged my memory, so I simply posted a tweet actual fast, as a result of I like to ballot my viewers for sentiment and all kinds of issues, and it’s a superb point-in-time indicator on all kinds of not simply market historical past, however how are you allotted? What are you doing? And the outcomes are sometimes shocking, and considerably miserable. We requested a few highlights the place we ask folks, what was the largest after-inflation drawdown in bonds that they thought occurred in historical past? And most of the people thought it was 5%, 10%, and the reply to that’s properly over 50%, and different questions like that, however we’ll have to attend about 10 minutes for the outcomes to come back in, however I did a do you personal gold or gold miners portfolio? So we’ll see what share comes out of my viewers.

But it surely’s humorous as a result of we did a ebook referred to as “World Asset Allocation” the place we checked out loads of conventional asset allocation methods, and so long as you personal type of all the principle classes, you are inclined to do okay, however at one specific atmosphere actually stood out, and that was the Nineteen Seventies. And also you guys received somewhat gray hair. You might be extra aware of the ’70s, however many individuals investing as we speak haven’t invested throughout that atmosphere. It’s been a declining rate of interest, decrease inflation atmosphere, and never so much helped within the ’70s. You personal loads of conventional stuff, you bought taken type of to the woodshed, however gold, clearly, was one of many large standouts. Worth shares type of helped higher than the alternative, however it looks like you’ve gotten these cycles in historical past the place by the point that everybody has forgotten what kind of atmosphere…they’ve solely invested throughout a sure interval, it predisposes them to an atmosphere that didn’t exist. I don’t actually have any query, however do you’ve gotten any remark?

Frank: I feel I do know the place you’re going with this. And that is one among my favourite talks, is that this technology, those with the black hair such as you guys, weren’t round within the ’70s. I began on this business in ’78, Ian a number of years earlier than me. And…

Ian: Thanks.

Frank: …we all know what it was like. And I’ll let you know what occurred. Nicely, folks neglect about bear markets, which this technology has by no means, ever, ever seen a bear market. I don’t know when you bear in mind the Nifty Fifties, the high-flying shares of the Nineteen Sixties. Nicely, that each one led to 1969. Truly, the height was 1966. 1969, it got here down actual arduous, and it didn’t hit the outdated excessive till 1982. Okay? So that you had a 13-year bear market the place issues went like this, simply sideways. And also you had a number of recessions in there. The one issues that went properly have been gold, oil, actual property, farmland, all that stuff.

And other people neglect that we’ve been accustomed, we’ve been conditioned to consider that you simply purchase on the dips, that the Fed’s going to come back to the rescue, all of those silly issues that work for lengthy durations of time till they don’t work anymore. The 1929 crash, these shares by no means hit their highs once more till 1952, there have been loads of nice rallies in between however neglect concerning the outdated highs. And other people don’t perceive that when a bear market actually units in, and the situations change, all the atmosphere has modified. Now you’ve had this enormous debt bubble that has grown over the many years. You’ve had this straightforward cash coverage, which has spoiled everybody to dying. Everybody’s had on line casino fever now for…for the reason that pandemic began. It’s all coming to an finish. This recreation is over. What comes subsequent is anyone’s guess, however my guess is there’s a extremely good likelihood we’re going right into a bear market the place it’s important to be far more selective than you ever have been. It’s important to take a look at the macro situations. And the macro situations have modified.

If we’re in what I consider to be a stagflation interval, then it’s important to choose sure shares. You may’t purchase what you have been shopping for two years in the past. And that’s what loads of this technology, they don’t get it as a result of they’ve by no means seen it. To them, it’s all inventory market crashes in 2008, inventory market crashes in 1999, it recovers two years later, after which the social gathering’s on once more. Nicely, I feel that this time is completely different. That is my perception. I could also be unsuitable, however I feel we’re in for a bear market and a interval of stagflation.

Meb: Ian, any extra perception? You understand, it’s humorous as a result of I didn’t publish this, however I used to be it the opposite day, concerning the size of time of what folks assume the long term is, what they are saying it’s, after which how they behave. They behave on form of like that zero-to-three-year time horizon. They might say they’ve a longer-term time horizon, however they virtually by no means do. However we regularly ask like, “How lengthy do you assume truly, like, shares might go with out hitting a brand new excessive in lots of many years?” I imply, within the U.S., when you take it again far sufficient into the 1800s, it’s like 50 years or one thing on an actual foundation. However when you go down a listing, and listeners go do this, go take the 45-odd inventory markets world wide, do it on a complete return foundation, so together with dividends, however look what number of have gone nowhere for 10 years to twenty years. Like, it’s not an insignificant quantity. I’ll must go simply do the precise writing, however there’s some which can be the identical place they have been 10 years, 20 years in the past, simply not the U.S., market cap weighted. We’ll see the way it performs out, however wrestle is the norm, I feel is a better strategy to say it. Ian, any ideas?

Ian: I can’t add to Frank’s view. I agree together with his view. In fact, I can’t bear in mind the 1929 crash like Frank can, however I feel we’re in for a interval of down inventory costs in a bear market, and it’ll last more than anybody expects. And so it’s going to be a unique world than we’ve all had for the final 20 years, for positive.

Meb: All proper. Who desires to make a guess? We solely have 200 votes thus far, however we’ll put up the complete. It normally will begin to condense. It’s fairly shut. What do you guys guess the proportion of Meb’s followers on Twitter that personal gold or miners? So based mostly within the U.S., loads of skilled traders, but in addition I tilt somewhat in the direction of…

Frank: What number of followers?

Meb: A couple of hundred and one thing thousand, 100,000, however there’s solely been 200 votes this far.

Frank: Okay. My guess is 10% to fifteen%.

Meb: Okay.

Ian: I’d say the identical, 15%.

Meb: You guys will likely be astonished as I’m that 40% stated they personal gold or miners. I guess that comes down, and I guess perhaps it’s simply all of the Canadians and Australians who are usually not on trip proper now or one thing, they usually’re all voting as a result of this appears means excessive relative to what I might anticipate. As a result of the bizarre half is, I did this similar ballot and I requested about actual property, and virtually nobody stated they owned actual property. So there’s some form of dislocation right here. I don’t know what it’s, however perhaps everybody’s simply saying as a result of they personal S&P Index, they find yourself proudly owning a number of gold miners in there. I don’t know, however one thing is amiss. It appears excessive.

All proper. Nicely, we’re going to begin to wind down, guys. We’ve solely received in all probability 10 extra minutes to talk with you. As we take into consideration type of the long run and look out to the horizon, something we haven’t chatted about within the investing world, within the mining world, has received you significantly curious, frightened, excited, depressed, any broad emotion? Something that you simply’re fascinated about, something that’s retaining you up at evening, or placing you to sleep, that we haven’t talked about? Something on the mind?

Frank: I’m wondering what this complete crypto collapse goes to imply for the remainder of the market, the financial system normally. I don’t assume the washout is completed but. It’s come off by two-thirds already, however I don’t assume it’s over but. It might do what the dot-com shares did again in 1999. You understand, by the point it was completed, they have been down 90%. So much went to zero. And so we haven’t had the whole washout of the crypto mania but. And if it does come, I’m wondering…I’m simply curious if there will likely be a knock-on impact, and if it actually will have an effect on the remainder of the housing market, inventory market, the financial system. That’s the query mark for me. I don’t know the reply, however that will fear me a bit.

Meb: Presumably, and that is arduous to quantify, however considering by way of form of the wind and the sails of valuable metals, about how a lot consideration, significantly with the youthful crowd, has been diverted for these searching for form of a secure haven mindset of two crypto sort of automobiles that in any other case might have gone to valuable metals. And so in some ways, I’m wondering if that may very well be a possible catalyst for a bull publicity to the miners, presuming they don’t additionally go down 80%, 90%, however seemingly that will be a optimistic. Man, the quantity of fraud and scams and simply horrible habits we’ve witnessed in the previous couple of years within the crypto area, actually, if not one black eye, it’s two.

Frank: I’m simply questioning whether or not they’re going to have any cash left to spend money on gold or the rest. That’s what worries me as a result of I feel that loads of that crypto crowd, the hardcore guys are happening with the ship. They don’t care, they consider. And so it’s not like they went, “Oh, whoops. We made a mistake, and time to change horses.” Clearly, the sensible merchants, and I had this debate a couple of yr in the past with somebody on this, a vital debate on gold versus Bitcoin form of factor. And I used to be being advised by the individual I used to be debating that each one the hedge funds and the sensible cash was going into Bitcoin, blah, blah. And I stated, “Guys, these are momentum gamers. The minute the momentum stops, they’re out they usually’re going to be driving another asset class. They’re not maxis. They don’t care as a lot as you. You guys…”

However there’s a very massive share of that crypto inhabitants that’s holding on and going, “We don’t care. It’s happening, finally, it’s going to go up and crypto’s going to avoid wasting the world.” And people are the oldsters which can be going to get fully, in my view, going to get fully worn out, they usually received’t have any cash left to place it to one thing else. So I don’t know. This complete crypto factor is a extremely bizarre one and it’s…I don’t assume we’ve ever seen something prefer it in our lifetimes, and we’ll by no means see it once more.

Meb: Ian, something that’s in your mind these days?

Ian: Nicely, the one factor, and I don’t know very a lot about it, however I’m watching with fascination because the world tries to get off of carbon fuels and get extra electrified and digitized. So due to this fact that ought to be extremely good for copper, and you’ll learn an article a day on how we’re going to expire of copper any minute, and but over the previous three weeks, the value of copper has collapsed. I simply don’t know the way the lithium, and the cobalt, and the copper are all going to do as we attempt to electrify the world. I do not know how that’s going to get resolved, however there’s a big disconnect out there proper now.

Meb: And the ag area too. I imply, you’ve seen, traditionally, among the ranges of the costs we’re at now, though they’ve come down, create loads of geopolitical unrest and also you’re seeing that. So you’ve gotten like a twin, each ag and power, stressor. Clearly, loads of it’s occurring in Europe. Final go-round, it was actually loads of meals insecurity in Africa, Center East, Arab Spring. Hopefully, it resolves itself, however usually that results in toppling of governments and regimes and all the pieces else. However we had a current podcast visitor, Peter Zion, on, who had a a lot bleaker view for the autumn and type of how that ag publicity might play out. So hopefully optimistic, however it’s actually one thing that assets are much more entrance of thoughts than they have been when oil was buying and selling at destructive future values a number of years in the past.

Frank: So as to add to the ag drawback, you’ve received all this local weather change stuff that’s occurring, which is absolutely affecting agriculture world wide. I wrote an article on this final yr on the consequences of local weather change on agriculture and agricultural output in behemoth nations like Brazil, you already know? Whether or not they’re excessive heats, droughts, floods…I imply, they’re occurring locations the place these items shouldn’t be occurring, they usually’re actually killing…It’s weighing closely on agricultural output. Now you’ve added this complete Ukraine conflict scenario, which as we all know, the wheat provides from Ukraine and Russia rely for about 40% of world provides. And the place’s that…who’s going to undergo most? Nations in Africa, the Center East, these which were reliant on these exports.

And I agree with you. I feel that’s one thing to be very frightened about as a result of, as I wrote just lately, we are able to all go right into a extreme recession. I can take away your iPhone and your automotive, you’ll stay. However I take away your meals, you’re going to behave in a different way. You’re going to do issues that you simply wouldn’t in any other case do. And that’s the place societies disintegrate. That’s the place you get the Arab Springs and different conditions. So I’d be very frightened about that too. And I simply hope it doesn’t occur as a result of it will be very tragic.

Meb: Gents, final query for you each. You may have a second to consider it, however it’s a query we ask all of our company, and it may be good or dangerous, however the query is framed, what’s your most memorable funding?

Frank: I’ve one, and it is a very priceless lesson in timing markets or the failure to time markets. And when the dot-com bubble was occurring, I used to be wanting round and I used to be telling everyone who listened to me that this was madness, that there was no foundation for the valuations of those tech shares, and that it will definitely would implode. And so I shorted, and I can’t bear in mind why I shorted this specific tech inventory that was buying and selling on the NASDAQ, however I learn what it was, and it was nothing. It was based mostly on some future potential, perhaps it will occur or that’ll occur, Venus will align with Mars, and all these items that to me have been mumbo-jumbo.

And also you had these massive funding banks, Wall Road funding banks, writing reviews with these loopy projections, going, “This…” So I began shorting it and I stored going up, and I stored getting margin calls. And I used to be going, “Okay, I can’t go for it.” So I stored placing up margin, placing up margin. The inventory went from $12 to $30 to $40 to $80. And I used to be going, “This will’t go on ceaselessly.” I finally bailed. And I feel I couldn’t…In any case, I misplaced a lot cash…I can’t bear in mind. I imply, it was $110, $120 a share. It went to $200, after which it went to zero. And I nonetheless misplaced some huge cash.

Meb: Shorting is so arduous. Markets can go bananas. I imply, the current examples final yr was with, and nonetheless ongoing, however a few of these meme shares that took down very massive quick sellers. The timing on shorting is tough, however it’s a superb lesson, and also you don’t neglect that one. I’ve had my expertise there. Ian, what do you bought?

Ian: My most memorable was at one level within the early ’90s, Robert Friedman was making an attempt to rent me and I wasn’t positive, and I used to be hesitant. And so he simply began throwing alternatives my means. I lastly agreed to go and be a part of him. And as a part of that, he stated, “Nicely, I’ll make you a director of diamond fields.” And I’d by no means heard of diamond fields. And so I received inventory in diamond fields at 15 cents, I received choices at 18 cents. And in order that was nice. So the inventory made it to $5, and I assumed I used to be a genius. So in fact I bought it. I made sufficient cash to construct a waterfront home in Vancouver, however then the inventory went to $150. In order that’s one among my most memorable investments.

Meb: We did a put up on this. I’m making an attempt to assume when it was and the title of it, however it’s primarily speaking about plan for funding outcomes. And the one which most individuals take into consideration is, okay, what occurs if this inventory begins to go down, or at what level do I promote if issues go poorly? However we regularly inform folks, we are saying, “It’s important to…” and that is clearly a significantly better drawback to have. “It’s important to mentally put together for a way are you going to deal with an funding that’s the reverse, that does rather well?” So a 5-bagger, a 10-bagger, a 100-bagger. And most of the people by no means had these as a result of what occurs is that they promote after the 1-bagger. They, “Oh my God, I purchased this, it doubled. I purchased Aris, it doubled. I’m going to go purchase a brand new automotive. I’m going to go on trip, yadda, yadda.”

However the energy legal guidelines of investing the place you make some actually large wealth is each inventory that turns into a 10-bagger or a 100-bagger was as soon as a 1-bagger. And so there’s loads of methods to consider that. I feel folks don’t prefer to assume within the binary phrases of…they prefer to assume by way of in or out, however perhaps simply promoting somewhat may very well be one answer to keep away from the emotional ache of remorse minimization there on the precise large winner. That’s nice, guys.

Nicely, look, fellas. I might like to maintain you all day, however all of us want to maneuver on. We’d like to have you ever again and watch what you guys are doing sooner or later. If folks wish to type of sustain together with your firm, what your ideas, your writings, your farming merchandise you’re placing out, the place do they go? What are the most effective locations to maintain up with you guys?

Frank: I’ve received a weblog,, I write for the Toronto star each couple of weeks, I write a column on normally macro points and different issues, and you’ll comply with me on Twitter. That’s normally the place you’ll get my messaging.

Ian: For me. I’m not on social media, I don’t write a column for anyone. You’ll have to simply keep watch over bulletins for the assorted firms I’m concerned in to see what I’m as much as.

Meb: Go hike across the Canadian wilderness, discover you in a cabin. Good.

Ian: Precisely proper.

Meb: Gents, it’s been a pleasure. Thanks for taking the time to hitch us as we speak.

Frank: Meb, that was nice. Nice interview. Thanks.

Ian: Yeah, Meb, thanks very a lot.

Meb: Podcast listeners, we’ll put up present notes to as we speak’s dialog at Should you love the present, when you hate it, shoot us suggestions at We like to learn the critiques. Please overview us on iTunes and subscribe to the present anyplace good podcasts are discovered. Thanks for listening, buddies, and good investing.



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